Presumptive Perfectionism and Homosexual Sin

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Don't let your "good" heart provide another means to Salvation but the Cross of Christ
Shall we let Gays be broken?

“I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, and I am eternally grateful for what I learned there — the truth that I learned and the biblical foundation that I have,” Chambers said. “But there was no way that I was ever going to tell anybody in my church growing up that I struggled with these things. I am very thankful to say that that has changed [in that church]…. But we’ve still all got to do better.” -Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International

One of the most pervasive errors in Christianity is one of presumptive perfectionism; The false presumption that everyone in the Church has no issues to deal with; That we are all “just fine”, said with a cheesy grin and a false bravado. Should we not rather be honest about what we struggle with and be willing to admit to brokenness, instead?

Bob Stith, the Southern Baptist Convention’s national strategist for gender issues and the representative of the convention’s Task Force on Ministry to Homosexuals said recently,  the Church, “should at least acknowledge that we have not responded well”, especially in hearing from those still struggling with their sin. Last I heard, Bob, everyone “struggles” or they aren’t Christian. The very fact you continue in the struggle over sin demonstrates Whose you are.

Is anyone better than Paul the Apostle? Didn’t Paul have “struggles”, even calling one so heinous as to be a thorn in his flesh? Didn’t Peter? How about Paul and Barnabas struggling over John Mark?

We have much too much to work toward to be now living in the DELUSION that we have, in ANY way, attained perfection ahead of so great a Disciple as Paul the Apostle (Phil 3:12).

In Hebrews 13:5 God describes how we must live free of “covetousness” in our “conversation”, being grateful for what we have in contentment because Jesus will never leave NOR forsake us. The idea we should then be even concerned with reaching a specific group, as if their struggles are in need of special sensitivity, some even excusing their sin as merely “struggling”, in order to reach them, is absurd and sinful in itself.

We all “struggle”, as Bob should know. And we do have a requirement in how we manage ourselves, and why, from our Father Himself:

1Corinthians 11:31,32
For if we discerned ourselves, we wouldn’t be judged. But when we are judged, we are punished by YAHWEH (THE LORD), that we may not be condemned with the world.

Considering this, we should continue to look to ourselves as we tend to one another, in the Love of Christ, holding fast to the Truth. But in no way should we separate one sin over another in our love for each other.That being said, we must acknowledge something is indeed different about certain “struggles”.

Do some struggle with lust? Those who have overcome the lust of the flesh are to minister to these to achieve Victory with our brothers. Those who have overcome sexual deviance, by Christ’s Power, minister to those who have that “struggle” too. There is little difference in either approach, except that homosexual deviance has a special characteristic and special consideration among Believers. And Bob should know why…

Homosexual sin, and Lesbianism as well, by the way, is a special sin in that this sin is a specific curse from God for a very specific reason. Bob knows this and should understand that, as Believing men, we have to protect our families from the results of that Curse.

ALL sin is a result of lust; Lust is the root of it all. We all want in error and manifest the evil desire in the different sins defined by God. But deviant sexual sin is different, because of the origination of that sin. In every instance deviant sexual sin is a direct curse from God for consummate idolatry. [See to what Paul refers in God "giving them over" to, in Romans and Corinthians, and why He did.] Whenever a people, or individual, persists in rejecting God, rejecting His Authority over them, those have been given over to “unnatural affection” for one another. God’s judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah shows a very specific response to those people from God, in that they were so wicked Yahweh destroyed them from the face of the earth.

Today we have a culture that seeks to side with Sodom and Gomorrah, saying God was wrong to them, that they are, instead, merely a protected people group, worthy of special consideration and reparations! How far the lost have fallen. Shall the Church also treat the sexually deviant this way, as deserving of something other than to be cursed by God? And why are they cursed? What is God’s purpose for their particular curse?

Homosexuality is a curse from God meant then to cause them to repent broken in their despair over their inability to resist their particular depravity!

Just like Job they are being Judged that some at least will then utterly surrender.

So when those who “struggle” with this curse from God desire fellowship with Believers it gives us pause, for good reason. These “gays”, “lesbians” and anything else that falls under what God defines as sexual deviance, are under a curse that is designed to BREAK them by God. They will not all repent, but SOME WILL. And that is God’s MERCY to them! Shall we then make it easier for them so they don’t break? Shall we enable them to remain cursed? Is that the Christian thing to do?

Should Christians be making Homosexual sin easier to remain under?

The answer should be obvious, but it appears some are so caught up in the emotions of the issues in dealing with sexual deviance they have lost sight of reality.

Without repentance in utter surrender there is no salvation

I remember years ago reading a very accurate Baptist flyer that showed in cartoon form how sinners will sometimes attempt to use their sadness in struggling with their sins to try and get you to feel sorry for them and offer them “another” way bu the Cross of Christ. Don’t give in; don’t enable sin to remain.

There is no other way, we all must SURRENDER or die in our sins, guilty…

And what does that surrender look like in someone who is under the curse of homosexuality? A COMPLETE ad UTTER rejection of all mannerisms, thoughts and deeds of that sin. Any lingering evidence shows a lack of surrender; These still need to be broken further.

Consider this the next time you feel the need to coddle someone who claims to “be gay.” Give them the Law, the Ten Commandments, and make room for the Hand of God to do His Work in them, lest you be found guilty of trying to hinder His Will for them.

I am not guilty of homosexuality, but I also had to learn “the hard way” over other sins. I am SO grateful the people that God used to reach me didn’t try and get in God’s Way for me in desiring to make my life easy enough to remain in my sins. No, they gave me The Truth and let the Holy Spirit cut my dependency from me, blow by blow.

Everyone can be delivered, some just have to lose a lot more flesh to get there…
Love them enough to let it hurt as much as God requires…

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

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Age-During or Eternal?

Eternal or To the End of the Age?

The title says what I intend at the outset: to identify whether there is indeed scriptural basis for the teaching of Eternal Damnation or whether there is an alternative that suggests God will allow mankind to pay for their sins through suffering and then be accepted.
(The latter argument is one of the apparent foundations of the Universalist Church.)

At First look

The NASB gives the traditional viewpoint of the damnation of those who do not accept the sufferings of Jesus as their propitiation being an eternal one, by translating Mathew 25:46 this way:

Matthew 25
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Young’s Literal Translation makes an interesting alternative observation:

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’

This single verse comparison of the texts seems to suggest there is a hidden meaning, or one that has been purposely obscured by some party who had a hand in one of these translations.

Here are others:

Daniel 12
2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12
2 ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.

So we see a problem with the translation of “eternal” being “age-during”.

If we do get “eternal life”, what then: Is this implying there is “eternal death”?

Acts 13
46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.”

Maybe so as:

1 John 5
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

If “eternal life” is what we get through obedience then what do we get for disobedience? Eternal life is eternal existence, so then not having His Eternal life will be an end, no? Once again, we must turn to the Bible…

The “eternal life” is defined as a dwelling place or existence with God in Psalm 90

Psalm 90:1-2

Lord, you have been our dwelling place for all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth, before you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

Can this mean that to not have “eternal life” is to not dwell with God, but to dwell elsewhere? Can there be another opportunity for mankind to make our way to God?

Does that seem so in Deuteronomy (YLT) ?:

Deuteronomy 33
27 A habitation [is] the eternal God, And beneath [are] arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy, and saith, ‘Destroy!’

And yet here:

Ezekiel 34:16
”I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the [Isaiah 10:16] fat and the strong I will destroy. I will [Isaiah 49:26] feed them with judgment.
(Whole Chapter: Ezekiel 34 In context: Ezekiel 34:15-17)

The Second Death

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Here are more YLT version Bible examples of translations of “eternal” as “age-during”

Jude 1
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before — an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’

Genesis 21
33 and [Abraham] planteth a tamarask in Beer-Sheba, and preacheth there in the name of Jehovah, God age-during;

This verse in Genesis is a clear indication of the intent of the term that the translation to “eternal” has to be accurate as God is not God for just an age:

Eternal search in NIV:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=eternal&SearchType=AND&version=NIV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=14&y=10

I found this rather odd example of YLT using both eternal and age-during in the same verse:

Deuteronomy 33
27 A habitation [is] the eternal God, And beneath [are] arms age-during. And He casteth out from thy presence the enemy, and saith, `Destroy!’

Which in the NASB reads:

Deuteronomy 33
27
“The eternal God is a dwelling place,
And underneath are the everlasting arms;
And He drove out the enemy from before you,
And said, ‘Destroy!’

This indicates that the literal word used in Rev 20:10 YLT version translated as “to the ages of the ages” may have been the same as used here for everlasting and not eternal.

Eternal:

06924 qedem {keh’-dem} or qedmah {kayd’-maw}

from 06923; TWOT – 1988a;

AV – east 32, old 17, eastward 11, ancient 6, east side 5, before 3,
east part 2, ancient time 2, aforetime 1, eternal 1, misc 7; 87

n m
1) east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
1a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
1b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
1c) anciently, of old (adverb)
1d) beginning
1e) east
adv
2) eastward, to or toward the East

 

Everlasting:

05769 `owlam {o-lawm’} or `olam {o-lawm’}

from 05956; TWOT – 1631a; n m

AV – ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15,
never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2,
more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Final Mention

My parting shot is this:
In another paper I had shown what I thought was conclusive evidence that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture. Since then there is question on how accurate that is, but for Matthew’s timeline issues. But whether we are here or not the timeline runs as follows:

Tribulation; the Devil and his angels are bound in the pit, The Believers reign with Jesus for 1000 years; Armageddon where the lost still alive during the 1000 year reign and still rejected Jesus, those dead without Christ who are now raised to the second resurrection and Satan, with his fallen angels, do battle with God and the Saved where they (Satan, et all) lose; The Judgment of the lost (I say to judgment and the fiery furnace (the Second Death),- others say they shall be unmade with creation); All creation is destroyed as/because or before A New Heaven and the New Earth are Created and God starts anew with His Children.

Conclusion

My summary then is that we can know what will happen to the lost – that God says in the Bible, in too many places, that the lost shall pay a horrible price! I know we can be sure of our own salvation, as we entrust ourselves to Jesus. It is plain we shall know for sure whether God will forgive all after a 1000 year punishment – He has made it plain in scripture that he shall not. There shall be eternal damnation for those who reject His Son Jesus as the atonement for their sin, we only need look to the overwhelming number of verses that speak directly of a horrible fate for the lost as being conclusive. I can say from my own understanding of God that He cannot be anything but JUST – and there is ample evidence for the eternal damnation of those who break the Law, remain unrepentant refusing the Mercy of Yahweh found ONLY through Jesus.

I believe the conclusion must be drawn from God’s character:

Mercy triumphs over Judgment, and God’s Mercy will only be realized in Jesus. All others must expect His Wrath, as scripture clearly states. God’s love for Justice, Truth and Righteousness cannot be ignored.

I have updated these conclusions since learning of the use for the Law.

The Law is perfect, converting the soul.

Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Patrick J. Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com Editor

Cross-references

1. Dan 12:2

2. Acts 13:46, 48; Rom 2:7; 5:21; 6:23; Gal 6:8; 1 John 5:11